No matter what nutrition philosophy you recommend, nearly everyone agrees fasting or cleansing is beneficial to healing.
But…how to guide your patients safely and successfully on a practitioner-led fasting program is no small feat (especially considering how many people suffer from chronic conditions).
If you struggle with uncertainty about implementing fasting programs in your practice then this week’s podcast: Prescribing Lifestyle Medicine: The Power of Fasting is the tutorial you’ve been looking for.
Join your host, James Maskell and fasting expert Dr. Felice Gersh, on how to safely run a clinical fasting program that gets results.
Tune in today and discover:
- Why most doctor-directed fasting programs fail
- Which patients are candidates for fasting, and which aren’t
- The most important pre-fasting step to take before recommending any type of fast
- How to get your patients excited and motivated to stay the course
- Plus get access to the new movie “Fasting” featuring Dr. Gersh
Mastering the art of practitioner-directed fasting takes prescribing lifestyle and functional medicine to a new level…the key is knowing how to do it effectively and safely.
Resources mentioned in this podcast:
Announcer: Welcome to the evolution of medicine podcast. The place health professionals come to hear from innovators and agitators leading the charge. We cover the latest clinical breakthroughs in health technology, as well as practical tools to help transform your practice and the health of your community. Now here’s your host, James Maskill.
James Maskell: Hello and welcome to the podcast. On this episode, we interviewed Dr. Felice Gersh, she is double board certified in OBGYN and integrated medicine. She practices in Orange County, California and she is the star, one of many stars of a new movie called, Fasting, put together by my friend Doug Orchard. So in this podcast we’re gonna talk about how to watch the movie. You can go to goevomed.com/fasting to watch the movie, to download the movie and to have it as an asset for your practice. But in this podcast we talked about the new sites of fasting. We talked about who shouldn’t fast. We talked about a step by step process to actually deliver fasting as part of your practice. Dr. Gersh has been doing this for a few years so she’s learnt the hard way and I think you’ll get a lot of value from that. We talked a little bit about the movie and you know, how to use fasting as an opportunity to get people into your practice, putting together different events, how to use Eventbrite. We talked about some practice management things as well. Lots of value. It was a great half an hour. Enjoy.
So a warm welcome to the podcast, Dr. Felice Gersh, welcome doc.
Felice Gersh MD: Oh hi James, how are you today? Glad to be here.
James Maskell: Very well. I know we’ve had you on the functional forum a couple times but it’s great to have you for the first time here on the podcast and today we’re gonna be talking about this new movie called, Fasting, that I know that you’re a part of. I know fasting has become super cool in the last couple years but I have a feeling that you might’ve been into this for longer than most other people so can you share us a little bit about some of your … how you got into it and why, how you got involved in this project?
Felice Gersh MD: Sure. I actually have been involved with the world of fasting for about three years now. Before that I was pretty unaware of all the benefits of fasting. The way that I got involved was really sort of a serendipitous kind of a thing. There was research being done at USC at the longevity institute under the directorship of professor Valter Longo. They had been doing over 20 years of work looking at time feeding and different nutrient types of diets and then they looked at types of fasting. As part of it, they ended up creating a product, which was then turned into actually a start up business that they named … before the business even came into existence, they actually wanted to try it in the real world.
They had done some research with a select group of about 30 volunteers. But they hadn’t used it in a real world kind of a group. So they were looking for a medical practice that would use it and use it on their patients. I did not know that this was their agenda. What happened was, they did an interview. They hired a marketing firm to ask about 100 to 150 integrated medical doctors, what they thought of the idea of fasting and incorporating it into their practices. As part of the marketing survey, there was a secret agenda which was to find a doctor that would then actually create the beta test site, to actually use their fasting mimicking diet which they named Prolon for promoting longevity in the real world.
So I was very fortunate, I was one of the ones interviewed for this marketing survey and I was selected to actually try Prolon in my practice, which I did for about a year. I was just a total volunteer and I used it with my patients and they based on the feedback, they reformulated some of the products, they took away the kale chips and turned them into kale crackers and they got more variety with the soups and such.
As part of it, of course, I tried it out on myself and I found it to be really amazing. It was really amazing the results I got for my patients as well and I have never looked back after I got that introduction into the world of fasting or in this case, mimicking diet that mimics fasting.
James Maskell: So tell us a little bit about your premiere understanding the science of fasting and the science of fast mimicking diets.
Felice Gersh MD: So it’s actually so simple when you really think about it. Humans evolved in the millions of years ago at a time when food was certainly not available at every moment of the day, the way it is today. So humans evolved to survive and to be able to reproduce. That was all about getting through periods when there wasn’t enough food. So humans evolved for times of feasting and times of fasting. The human body is designed perfectly for both of those scenarios. But in our current world, we tend to eat consistently like on a day to day basis, sometimes around the clock and somewhere along the lines someone got this idea that you should be eating every two hours. Well it turns out that timed eating during the day so not eating all the time, and then not even eating every day and having periods when we don’t eat really causes the body to do rejuvenation and regeneration.
So it’s one of those Chinese yin yang kinds of things. We’re either building or we’re burning. If we have constant food we’re in a state of constant building and constant proliferation. That means that those cells in our bodies never get to rejuvenate. That is a process that’s called otofogy where cellular components like organelles are broken down into their components like amino acids and fatty acids and such, and then restructured into new organelles, new components, to actually have the cells become healthy from within. The mitochondria can as well go through a process similar called mitosogy where the mitochondria can be rejuvenated. When this happens, you actually have longer lived, healthier cells.
In the process you can have potentially a longer lifespan. In fact, when they did research on mice, they found that when they did the equivalent of fasting on a mice level like with the Prolon, which would be the equivalent of like a four day water fast. Only in this case, it’s using food that flies under the radar of detection, so you eat food for five days but your body thinks you actually fasted for four, but if you do the equivalent which is a three day fast in a mouse, those mice actually lived significantly longer because if every cell in the body can live longer, you potentially can have a longer lifespan, because in essence, aging doesn’t have to be about deterioration. The way that our bodies can live can be based on how healthy our cells are. Our cells don’t know how old they are, they just do what they’re told to do.
What sets our lifespan is our teomeres, right? So we get to a point where we have true [inaudible 00:07:10] when our cells can no longer reproduce themselves and that’s when you can’t survive any longer and that’s’ why at this point, we cant’ hope to live for 200 years, but if we can live with a health band, ’cause we don’t really know human data to live longer, but we can live better when all of our cells in our bodies live better then our organs live better and they’re healthier and we are healthier. That is what the promise of fasting really gives to us. Healthier cells, healthier organs, healthier life, healthier health span.
James Maskell: Beautiful. Yeah, I love that. So obviously we have a lot of practitioners that listen to this who some of which, some of who are helping people sort of optimize and live longer, healthier lives, but some of them are dealing with really chronically ill people, right? People who come in with chronic conditions that are sort of wastebasket diagnosis with a medical system. I know you’re dealing with a lot of those people, too, in your practice.
So since you’ll be starting to implement these kind of ideas, is this safe to do with people who are trying to recover from a chronic disease, is this even beneficial for them or is it just really for people once they’ve got to a basic level of health, then they can start fasting. What recommendations would you have for those people who are listening who might have a mixed bag in their practice?
Felice Gersh MD: Well I’m so glad you brought that up, James because there’s only a very small group of people that really would be excluded from the world of fasting. The people who are exceptionally elderly or very frail, very malnourished, extremely emaciated, people with BMI’s under 18, the very young say under 18 or even under 21 and elderly usually depending on their state of being, you know their health, over say 70 or maybe even 80. In fact, some people have tried in their 80’s. It really has to be individualized once you get into that age group. But other than that, there is so much potential to actually reverse chronic illness and it’s very very exciting. They’ve had now research that fasting can actually reverse autoimmune disease and I’m using it just prolifically. I use it with everyone of my autoimmune patients with excellent results.
It’s one of those things I rarely talk about my own health because I’m pretty healthy but I am willing to share because I don’t think people really care that much about my health, but I want to share that I have reversed my own Hashimoto’s through doing the Prolon. I’ve done it 11 times now. They actually have dated that in the mouse model of multiple sclerosis, they’ve actually reversed multiple sclerosis and in the humans where they did a short term study, they actually had very tremendous improvement and regenerated myelin sheath, which is never been done before. So it’s really, really optimistic for reversing autoimmune disease.
They’ve actually now regenerated beta cells. How amazing is that? That there is the hope that you can actually cure type one diabetes, type two diabetes, and that is really a phenomenal type of an event. As well in other metabolic syndrome, people have reversed metabolic syndrome, prediabetes for sure is always reversible in virtually every case. Now they’re looking at cancer, actually improving cancer survival and improve chemotherapy regimens with more efficacy and better safety profiles and as well, they’re looking at it for dementia because when you do fasting, now we’re not talking about fasting, I’m talking about at least a three to four day fast. You can have tremendous benefits from just fasting for one day here and there in terms of weight loss, and that can in turn lower inflammation.
But in terms of chronic disease, reversing those kinds of conditions that I’m talking about, you really need to do a three to four day fast, if you’re doing a water fast or you can do like the fasting mimicking diet and they’re showing that you can increase brain derived normotrophic factor, which can improve mood but also improve cognitive health. So doing research now on reversing or reducing different cognitive issues, and that is really extremely optimistic as far as things we know – so many people have brain bog. That alone, is phenomenal. I know that my own brain feels like it’s on the top of the world at the end of a five day fast.
James Maskell: Yeah that’s great. I’m really excited you know one thing that I’ve noticed about fasting is that in a world where diet specialists cannot agree on anything … vegan, paleo, keto, whatever, it seems almost everyone is in support of this new diet which is basically not eating anything for a period of time. I know that you probably have those kind of conversations, too. It seems like I’ve seen vegan people on Facebook, and whatever talking about am I fasting, I’ve seen it’s a big part, intermittent fasting is a big part of the ketogenic movement and the blood sugar regulation. So what are your thoughts on whether or not this seems to be something that everyone’s getting behind because the science is just so irrefutable at this point?
Felice Gersh MD: Well I think it is irrefutable that fasting is beneficial. In terms of the whole ketogenic diet kind of thing, I think that when you do periodic fasting, where you do either water fast for say four days or you do a fasting mimicking diet for five days or something along those lines, what you are doing is creating intermittent ketosis, and that’s really what I advocate for. So I love the idea of doing ketosis but then also not doing ketosis. It’s sort of like eating, not eating. Everything has to be in balance. We know that when you have constant ketosis, you actually can harm the gut microbiome. But when you do periodic ketosis, and you’re doing it on and off like a few days every month, you actually, it’s almost like a reset. So it’s like a reboot to the gut microbiome to the circadian rhythm. So we now know that fasting is amazing for rejuvenating the gut microbiome and for resetting and getting back on the beat with the circadian clock in our bodies, then I think that it will soon become apparent that the idea of intermittent ketosis is really the way to go.
Then on the other days of the month when you’re not doing fasting and you’re not doing ketosis, you’re eating a very high plant based diet because we now know that plants with their fiber, with their polyphenols, which are like magic. Really they’re like the magic sauce that keeps everything right in the body that eating a high plant based diet is intermittently interspersed with fasting and getting ketosis is really the key to longevity and health span.
James Maskell: Absolutely. Beautiful. Well look, I’m really glad that this is coming out and so forth, so from just a clinical perspective, you run your own clinic, right? How do you go about facilitating this conversation in your practice and for those practitioners who are listening to this, how do you make it easy for patients to understand what to do or not to do because ultimately you could just not eat for a day or a couple days but I know that there are other ways that you can do it to like stop some of the typical symptoms that come up with doing that so how to stop the blood sugar crashing, those kind of things. So have you helped people to do it in your practice?
Felice Gersh MD: Oh James, I learned the hard way actually. When I first started being the beta test, for the fasting mimicking diet I just put everyone straight on it. I learned that way that when people are really a sugar addicts, when they’re eating a lot of processed food and they’re eating around the clock and they have no fast at night, they don’t have timed eating, and then you suddenly put them into a fasting situation, a very high percentage do not tolerate it and by day three when they’re going into ketosis, even day two and a half, and their bodies don’t really convert well from burning sugar to burning fat. There’s something wrong with them.
When people eat constant, high sugar diets, they’re really not good at burning fat. They’re really good at making fat and they’re good at using sugar to some degree, not always by their brain though. They really didn’t have a good conversion and they felt like they were starving and they would run and start eating peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. That seemed to be the go to. I don’t know, people must have peanut butter and jelly and bread in their houses because that’s what people were doing, and they weren’t’ talking to each other. So I learned that it’s much better rather to take people and put them on what I have now named an anti-inflammatory reset diet.
So I tell them for one month that they should stop eating all processed food and sugar foods and start doing timed eating and eating a lot of plants and sort of detoxing them off of the standard American diet. They do that for a month first before I even introduce the idea of fasting because I like to be successful and I found that you really do need to prep people, absolutely or they really do feel terrible and they get headaches and then they give up and they don’t wanna go back and try it again.
So I always do this sort of an anti-inflammatory reset, detox off of the standard American diet and then I explain why the human body is designed for times of fasting and how the cells regenerate and all the benefits they’re going to feel and how I … always try to walk the talk and how I’ve done it myself and how it’s really helped me and I get very, very high acceptance after that but definitely for all of the listeners out there, don’t take your patients who are eating crap and then tell them to fast. They are not going to tolerate it well. A few will but most of them are going to suffer and then give up and throw their hands up and never wanna do it again.
James Maskell: Yeah that’s a great point because obviously you wanna keep them in like typically if you’re looking at some of these chronically ill people, they’re gonna have to be in your practice for let’s say, six to twelve months to unwind a serious chronic condition autoimmune disease or otherwise, so what you’re saying is set out in the beginning a very clear idea of phase one is getting you adjusted to real food and you’ll probably see some benefits from that and sort of getting to a point where you’re not having such crazy sugar highs and lows and then we can get into some more clinical fasting but you have to take it step by step. I think that maybe seems like a very sort of reasonable approach and I think one of the things that a lot of practitioners struggle with is this so much that they’re trying to communicate in this first appointment that they end up just sort of verbal diarrheaing all over the patient and then the patient doesn’t really get it. You have to have some systems, some structure to help people to understand what to expect ’cause this isn’t like a doctor’s office where you just get a drug and everything goes away.
Felice Gersh MD: Right. So what I have learned and I know a lot of doctors have these really long first appointments. I limit my first appointment to one hour with me. Now they’re in the office for a longer period of time because they have to check in, they have their vital signs and often they’ll have lab work done. But I think one on one with a doctor for more than an hour and the people’s head, they’re just spinning, right? It’s too much information, too fast. So I think slow it down, and take it step by step and start with the very easy like low lying fruit. Do you go to bed, at what time do you go to bed? Do you sit all day and do you exercise and what are you eating and start with the low lying fruit. Don’t tell people to focus or tell them not to focus on losing weight. I tell them, you have to have the nutrients on board in order to lose weight. You need to really get healthy before you worry about losing weight. First nourish your body. In fact, most people who are overweight are really undernourished. So worry about weight later, first get healthy.
James Maskell: Yeah that’s great advice. I really appreciate you sharing that because ultimately we wanna keep people in the practices and give them the full opportunity to get well and we don’t want them crashing after the first week and then be like, oh that didn’t work. This is a process and that needs to happen and so I would reiterate for all the people who are regular listeners at this point, you need to have a predictable structure that patients are coming into. You need to have a way of educating them that’s not just developed on your time. We just opened the practice accelerator the last two weeks to bring people in and we hope that if you’re listening to this and you don’t have that set up, we’d love to have you to join the practice accelerator because we have almost 600 top physicians in the country who are really creating predictable education systems in the practice, that don’t rely on you having to remember to say it. You could have a fasting auto responder where someone, okay this person’s going into a fasting process, this is a series of emails that’s gonna go over a period of time to educate them about how to do it. A handout could work. There’s other things you could do in the office but this is an automated system that just works every time.
So in our practice accelerator we’re seeing a lot of practitioners, once they have their base line, get to know the practice, all that kind of stuff set up, they can do things like this. A fasting auto responder where now anyone who they’re gonna put onto a fasting or fasting mimicking diet is gonna go through a systemic process of learning to understand that, either through a health coach or auto responder or some other practitioner. So I just wanna emphasize what Dr. Gersh is saying ’cause you have to have some sort of structure to make sure that people get this right because if they get it wrong, they’re gonna tell all their friends about what a horrible experience they had in your practice and you really didn’t do anything wrong, you just didn’t have the right structure to be able to make it easy for them to get it right.
So if you wanna find out more about the practice accelerator, go to goevomed.com/brochure You can find more about it there and we’d love to have you or you can book a call to find out more about it. So doc, I really appreciate you coming to share sort of the science and how you’ve made it work. Let’s talk a little bit about the film now because you were in this film called Fasting. Obviously one of Doug’s films last year and I think he’s such a great guy and he’s done a great job of putting this together. I know you’ve had a chance to watch the film. Ultimately, we’re trying to sell people on taking better care of themselves and being healthier otherwise. What is your thoughts on the film itself as far as an asset that would sort of inspire people to want to do this?
Felice Gersh MD: Well I really enjoyed the film and I thought he was brilliant the way he interwove all these interviews and it took little bits from different people’s interview conversations and then wove it into really a cohesive story of how fasting can be implemented and also viewed from different angles because he looked at different types of fasting. Whichever fasting approach people took whether it was juice fasting or water fasting or fasting mimicking diets, they all benefited. It’s not just one way to solve this problem of how to implement fasting. I think that was really important and telling the stories, the personal stories of people who suffered and then really overcame a lot of their problems through utilizing fasting in a very beneficial way I thought was also very powerful.
I wish that we could do sequels because there’s so many different types of stories. I love personal stories. Everyone does, no one wants to just talk abstractly. People wanna see the real impact of fasting on people’s lives and I thought that the movie actually did show that to a large degree as well as putting in a lot of science. I think that all the practitioners out there and this is what I’m going to do with the movie. I’m going to have like a movie matinee like on Saturdays and have people come in and I will show the movie in my office ’cause I have a screen. I’m sure everybody has different ways that they can show movies to their patients.
Then talk about how I would like them to implement fasting into their own regimens. I think that it’s a great way to bring your patient population into the fasting world. By showing them the movie as sort of a group project and then talking about the benefits that you as a practitioner has found with your own patient population and yourself. Everyone should try this unless you’re that small group that shouldn’t do it. Everyone should try this for themselves. I really believe that the doctors should walk the talk and that you’ll find that you feel so much better when you really get into this and not just once, you’ve got to do it over and over. It’s really a permanent part of the lifestyle. But I really think that incorporating this movie into your practice will be a great benefit for the growth of your practice ’cause I know that you help practitioners all the time to grow their businesses and how to run them and also for the patients. It’s always win win, isn’t that how we always want it?
James Maskell: Absolutely. Yeah I wanna bring in a couple points you said there, so first of all, movies are designed to be able to get people fired up about things. It’s really designed to move emotion. One of the reasons why we recommend to do a movie night using a film like Escape Fire is ’cause if you watch the film Escape Fire, you would want to see an integrative doctor afterwards like it’s really well made. It’s done really well so that at the end you’re like, okay I need to see one of these doctors. Who can I go and see? Well look, there’s an integrative doctor hosting the movie. So they can go and see them.
Same thing here with the fasting, it’s like okay, I’m sold on this. I realize that I might need some help to implement it so that I’m healthy and here’s Dr. Gersh who’s hosting it so first of all, I think that it’s a good idea. Second of all, a low barrier to entry moment to come into the practice is really smart. If your only access point into the practice is your first appointment fee, which is typically way higher and you go and do the labs or otherwise, we may not be getting as many people as we can into the practice because the barriers are too high. Especially if you only take cash, which is 75% of functional integrative medicine practices.
So doing something like this whether it’s an early starting point, I guess one other thing I wanna talk about is just the power of peer to peer support because I would imagine, and I know actually, I’m not just imagining. Going through this with a buddy, an accountability buddy, a support buddy would be way better so just to give you an example, Dr. Sachin Patel a friend. He has an online group called The Living Proof Fast. If you look at it on Facebook, you can find it. He’s got almost 2,000 people in a Facebook group where they’re essentially doing supporting, everyone supporting each other to do this fast.
It’s really cool because ultimately on day two, if you are feeling a little bit tired or undernourished or otherwise, listening to other people who are and then see what they’re doing and supporting each other sort of energetically but also a bit of moral support there, can be really powerful so finding ways to be able to do this in your practice. Like Felice is saying to show a movie on Saturday lunch time. Get the people in, the most valuable thing that you’re doing there actually is introducing people who wanna do fasting to each other. It’s not about the professional in a certain way, it’s about finding people who are interested in doing something healthy and give them accountability because I can tell you one thing, it’s like someone who’s fasting regularly, if they’re in a group of friends, a friendship group who’s never heard of that or would never consider it, who all eat the standard American diet or they all eat together at work or otherwise, it’s gonna be super difficult for them to pull it off.
It’s not about willpower, it’s about a social situation that they put themselves in at work or their group of friends that doesn’t make it easy for them to do that. Because of that, you have to set up a new social eco system for them to be able to make healthy behaviors and with the movie night and with the Facebook group and with the peer to peer introductions, what you’re doing is increasing the likelihood that someone’s gonna have a good experience. Literally this is free. This is free for you to do and if it works, this person will think kindly on your practice forever. The trade off of being able to do this is really important. So I’m glad that you shared the way that you’re doing because I think it’s really, really powerful. I really appreciate you coming in and sharing. Is there anything else you wanna share on this sort of general topic before we wrap up?
Felice Gersh MD: Well just said as a woman’s health specialist, I deal with a lot of women who are trying to get pregnant and also women who are going through the menopausal transition and in menopause. Fasting is wonderful for both of those groups. You can actually improve fertility. We now know that you can, like I said, you can reboot the gut microbiome and the circadian clock which can really improve healthy of women before they get pregnant. A lot of times when women have fertility problems, they go to a fertility center which actually cause them to sort of trick their bodies to getting pregnant by giving them fertility drugs, but women should be healthy before they actually go through fertility treatments.
Often, if they actually go into a regimen where they have fertility preparation where they get on a good healthy diet and then they do some periodic fasting, they will actually not need fertility treatment, so you could be incredibly popular in your community if you help women to get healthy before they get pregnant. Also, I shouldn’t leave out the men because men count too. Men are getting pretty unhealthy in the reproductive years and so men I think that they should do it as a couple and you could do actually a couple’s program to get heavier publicity for your own practice and get more popular and really help couples who are having trouble getting pregnant by getting them healthier as a team.
Then for women in menopause, they always get belly fat, they get inflamed, they get gut dysbiosis and all of this can be either reversed or at least reduced in their incidences by doing the fasting regimen so these are really populations that I deal with and I just wanted to bring that to the attention of your watchers. The audience, because they are a group that is very interested and very eager to learn how to get healthier.
James Maskell: I’m glad you brought that up, you know one of the principles that I think has time, it’s time has come in medicine is a naturopathic concept called the therapeutic order. The way you do the least invasive, least costly interventions first and then you make your way up. So you don’t start with the drugs and surgery, you start with the simple. Fasting is the least costly, least invasive, of all time. It’s clearly the most obvious starting point so yeah, never do IVF unless you’ve done a bunch of three day fasts. Are you kidding me? So I really want and I really appreciate you sharing that and all of your wisdom. We’ve appreciated having you on the functional forum when you’ve had a chance to be on and share your wisdom with the crowd. This is the first time we’ve had you on the podcast. I think that if the functional integrative medicine community could get really good at delivering fasting, the research is only gonna get more and regular doctors don’t know anything about it. So if we could get really good at doing it, having fasting programs in our clinics, setting it up, doing things on Eventbrite, getting people in. It’s an easy starting point to be able to create healthy behaviors and it fits with all the principles we’ve been speaking about so I really appreciate you coming in to here to share about it.
The movie’s called Fasting. If you wanna check it out, go to goevomed.com/fasting and you can see it, you can buy it, you can have it for downloads that you can do all of these movies. Down the road maybe it’ll be available through tug.com or gather or one of those other things so you can do it in an actual theater. But for now, start it in your practice. Most of you have a TV or you have a place where there’s a TV that you could do it. Start with something low overhead. Put it on Eventbrite where you can get people who are interested in fasting locally. They go on Eventbrite, they’re like oh, are there any events near me where I can find out about fasting? Be that person. You wanna build your practice, be that person in your zip code who’s putting on this event. It’s literally the lowest possible barrier to entry and how we’re getting people into our ecosystem.
So Dr. Gersh, thanks so much for being with us. Check out the fasting movie. Go to goevomed.com/fasting. You’ll see Dr. Gersh and many other experts from our community in there. It’s been great having you on the evolution of medicine podcast. I’m your host, James Maskill. We’ve been with Dr. Felice Gersh. She’s a double board certified in integrative medicine and OBGYN and you can find out more about her on the movie and at her website, but for now, I’m your host, James Maskill and we’ll see you next time.
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