Welcome to the Evolution of Medicine podcast! On this episode, James sits down with his friend and colleague, Uli Iserloh, PhD. Uli is the Chief Operating Officer at the Evolution of Medicine and founder of Big Boost Marketing, where he helps practitioners build education-based marketing structures for their practices.

This episode kicks off our Practice Marketing Series, which will give functional medicine practitioners a step-by-step guide to taking their practices to the next level. Highlights from this episode include:

  • Understanding the “hero’s journey” in marketing and how using the method of storytelling can accelerate your marketing efforts and engage patients, both current and potential
  • What an education-based marketing infrastructure would look like in your practice
  • How the process of buying a car is actually quite similar to marketing a functional medicine practice (you might be surprised!)
  • How to differentiate your practice and services when marketing to patients
  • How to not only attract patients to your website, but also continue engaging with them via email and social media
  • How to define your marketing message
  • And so much more!

Resources mentioned in this podcast:

James Maskell: Hello, and welcome to the podcast. This is Earth Day 2020, it’s the 22nd of April, and it’s a very special date for us here at the Evolution of Medicine.

We are kicking off our next annual series. Last year, it was the group visits and that led to 13 podcasts, a book, and challenges all around getting practitioners to do group visits.

This year, we’re going to focus on marketing and especially education-based marketing because ultimately our vision is all about practitioners making an impact at the local level from their practices, and who better to bring in to kick off this year’s series than Dr. Uli Iserloh. He’s the Chief Operating Officer at the Evolution of Medicine. He has also been involved in helping hundreds of practitioners build education marketing structures for the front-end of their practice.

We talked about the need for education-based marketing. We talked about the practitioner building structures that allow people to find out about what they do in their practice and bring people from unaware all the way through to making their first paid appointment in your clinic. It’s going to be a super useful series and a great way to kick it off. Enjoy!

So a warm welcome back to the podcast, Dr. Uli Iserloh. Welcome, Uli.

Uli Iserloh: Hey, glad to be on here and as always, super excited about talking about marketing and how practitioners can move their practice forward, especially in these difficult times.

James Maskell: Absolutely. And we’re going to have a wide-ranging conversation here about marketing for the modern practitioner. But I guess before we get into that, this podcast, the beginning of a whole new season, a new series that we’re going to do on marketing over the next year is launching on the one year anniversary of the passing of our brother and business partner, Gabe Hofmann, who was the co-founder here at the Evolution of Medicine and you and I worked with him for a long time.

I would just love to get your thoughts as to I guess a little bit of his legacy with regard to this conversation of marketing and working with practitioners. What are your thoughts on that?

Uli Iserloh: Yeah. Obviously we are really and deeply connected with Gabe. He was an integral part of the company and for me personally, he talked about the hero’s journey very early on and we bonded over this and he had a very storied history that brought him into the integrative medicine world; how he became a health coach, how he co-founded the Evolution of Medicine with you in 2014.

He and I had lots of discussions about what that hero’s journey meant and you know, the importance of really sharing that story with patients that ultimately it’s not the physician that heals a patient; it’s really the patient feeling motivated and escapes that empowered to make changes in their life that moves the needle in the right direction.

So it’s this empowerment that they see other people just like them go through similar stories, have similar trials and tribulations and that they were able to pull themselves out of the funk they were in that then motivates them to do the same for themselves.

James Maskell: Absolutely. Yeah. And if you have a listen to the whole of last season on group visits, whole thing that the Evolution of Medicine has been about, right? Whether it’s coaching, whether it’s groups and community and whether it’s marketing or practice, they all have one thing in common, which is it’s about the power of story and it’s about the power of helping people to become the hero of their own journey.

If you haven’t gone back to watch Gabe, we’ll put that on the detail sheet here for the podcast so you can go and watch his talk that he gave on the Evolution of Oncology Forum because it really does speak to that.

The whole theme of the group visit session that we did last year was you need to find ways for people who are already going through that journey becoming empowered or getting healthy to infect other people.

Groups are perfect for that and health coaches are typically perfect for that because health coaches are probably just people who have had that transformational experience themselves and want to help other people. So that is the Evolution of Medicine.

What I want to start with today and no better person to start it with, Uli, is a conversation just about practice marketing. And I know that might sound a little bit redundant, but ultimately if the COVID-19 issue has caused us anything, it’s to really think about what creates health, right?

If we really think about what creates health, what really creates health, what helps people not die from an infection. Ultimately, our role as practitioners and a community of providers that are interested in empowering people towards health creation, it couldn’t be more important.

So I’m super excited to kick off this year and over the next 12 months, we’re going to speak to leaders in the space, practitioners just like you who have built an education-based marketing infrastructure.

Let’s just start there, Uli. As far as marketing, I just said an education-based marketing infrastructure. What does that mean to you?

Uli Iserloh: Yeah. So education-based marketing is really the prevailing paradigm. How integrative naturopathic and functional medicine practitioners need to communicate about their practice. It’s not enough to just put messages out there saying, “Buy my stuff, come into my practice.”

What really underlies a patient’s decisions to partner with you and your practice is the trust that there’s enough KLT factor… Know, Love and Trust factor to take the next step. That they feel comfortable about partnering with you on the health journey.

Health, just like finances, is a very tricky topic and people have lots of fears around it or a lot of apprehension, so they need to first really trust somebody to make a decision to entrust somebody to partner with them. So this is where education-based marketing comes into play as opposed to more of the advertised-based marketing where we just talk about products and services.

So in our case, if we’re taking the average consumer in your community. If they don’t know what you do or what integrative, functional or naturopathic medicine is, there’s no way to transact with them and take the next step because what they don’t know, they won’t engage with.

So the only way forward from that is really to educate people about what it is that you do and why your approach may be more useful in the context of their disease and what they’ve tried so far.

Ultimately, for people to choose you, they really have to first perceive that there’s a choice. They need to be aware of their various options. If they aren’t aware of the options that they have, then education-based marketing is where we need to start.

James Maskell: Absolutely. So educating people…once people understand the physiology, once people understand how their body works, you know it’s very intuitive for people to understand a root-cause approach. I think that whether you’re talking about naturopathic, integrative or functional medicine, we’re talking about a whole-body, root-cause approach.

Ultimately, I think once people are exposed to the fact that that is an option and see that that can work and hear from other people that it can work, whether that be testimonials or otherwise, it makes a lot of sense to people. But the vast majority of people haven’t been reached yet. That’s the goal of what we need to reach.

Now, when I got into this field early in 2005 and I worked in a clinic, our best strategies for attracting patients were flyers, were events at the practice, going to speak at offices and other places where there were people and different kinds of groups.

But at this exact moment in history, none of that is possible because we can’t leave our houses. If you’re listening to this at some point in the future, we are right in the middle of the COVID isolation.

So there has been a need for practitioners to think about creating a digital infrastructure, and it just so happens that’s what we’ve been talking about for the last six years with our concept of the functional integrated micropractice and creating sort of like a digital infrastructure to be able to educate people consistently.

The reason why I wanted to bring you on here is I know that not only have we talked about this for six years, but one of the things that we realized straight away back in I think 2016 when we launched the Practice Accelerator and you and I had been working together for a long time, is that for the vast majority of practitioners, they needed someone to help them build this because this is not a skillset that you come out of naturopathic school or IFM with.

I know, Uli, you’ve probably built hundreds if not thousands of different funnels and websites and different things for people over the last few years. So what is a funnel and why is it relevant to this conversation?

Uli Iserloh: Yeah. So if we’re really going back to the beginning of the conversation, ultimately you have to tell stories. And with stories, there’s always a sequence. There’s a beginning, there’s a middle and there’s an end, right? The end has a takeaway, a punchline.

Same with education-based marketing…you can’t just start the story in the middle of the book. You have to start at the beginning and this is where funnel comes in there. Imagine you had an automated patient attraction funnel that moves people seamlessly from social media, meeting where they’re at, talking about the problems that they’re experiencing and then move them through a series of communication messages that are delivered on social media, on your website through email all the way into a discovery call and a first appointment.

The funnel is really something that if you think about the website, a regular website used to be almost, what would I call it, an all-you-can-eat buffet. People show up on your homepage and then there’s a million links, a million ways to navigate. People get confused, they get lost, they’re maybe not following the right path that you want them to take.

The funnel is essentially just a series of webpages that are arranged in a logical order where there’s one page where they’re ending up. There’s no main navigation. There’s only one prescribed action step at the end of it and that leads them to a next page to next page, et cetera.

So you take control of the way the story unfolds, how you narrate the story. And again, for those of you listening and trying to…the analogy I have is how do you go about buying a car? It’s not a random process. Or how do you get a patient back to health? You follow a certain clinical process, right? It’s the same thing.

Now in the case of buying a car, first you have to see the flyer. Next you have to go to the dealership. Next you have to walk the parking lot, looking at cars. You have to sit in the car. You have to take a car for a test drive. Then you go to the office and the negotiations start. You can’t go through these steps in any random order, it has to be in that order for the salesperson to really know that ultimately you will buy the car.

The same is true for your patients. If you just give them a bunch of random choices and there’s no logical progression, then it’s very unlikely that they come to the conclusion that you are indeed their best bet and that you can actually help them in ways that nobody else could have helped them before.

James Maskell: Absolutely. That’s such a key point. I think the thing that we’ll have to bring out of it. One…this is a completely digital experience, right? In most cases, yes. Some practitioners in our Accelerator have started with a digital experience and then they push them into a live event. Maybe they’re doing an event every week and they’re doing some sort of lecture on it and they push everyone to that live event and they might make an offer to become a patient there.

Even in these purely digital times, a purely digital experience, like you said, you’re using social media, you’re using email, you’re using web pages and you’re using different types of content stories, information.

I guess one question I have for you, Uli, is what is the right combination of stories, which is like anecdotal obviously and data because I think some people will respond to different types of things. When you’re creating funnels, how do you mix and match scientific truths and stories of success with previous users of the service?

Uli Iserloh: Yes, an excellent question. And you know, ultimately, people buy on emotion and rationalize with logic. And so ultimately if you just come to any transection or present your services on your website from a purely logical, factual basis, the type of services that you offer, the kind of tests you offer, your academic training, your residency, that’s all facts and that really doesn’t move people to action.

So what you need to inject, not only into your website, but your social media and your emails as well is your personal story. Remember, people like to do business with people that are like them. If they can’t understand how you are like them, that you had a similar origin story, that you had similar challenges, and that you are your own case study…that’s probably what got you into functional medicine in the first place.

Talking to hundreds and thousands of practitioners, a lot of them moved from conventional into functional medicine because of personal health challenges that led them to this exploration of what’s working and ultimately they’ve figured it out and it prompted them to stick with this and they couldn’t go back to just conventional medicine.

So this is the origin story that you really need to share. It’s the hero’s journey as we said at the beginning of the call that a hero is tasked with a challenge. There’s seemingly insurmountable obstacles and through his or her own resourcefulness or the guide or mentor that’s by their side, they’re able to overcome those obstacles and ultimately succeed.

I think this is the framework that you need to think about in your social media and in your website and in email copy. You have to inject emotion in there because the saying is, “If they cry, they buy.” So the saying is like if you don’t evoke emotions for your patients and prospects is very hard for you to connect with them and actually start paying attention to you.

Now in a very practical sense, what I find works really well is that for people to understand that they have choice, that what you offer is very different from what they’ve tried before. They really need to know about all the ways their previous provider, the previous ways of thinking, their previous approach has failed them.

If we take an example of you trying to sell somebody on a diet, I suspect that most people will think right away, “Diets don’t work. I’ve tried 15 diets, none of them kept the weight off.” So you can’t just go straight into talking about your diet and why your diet is better. You have to first explain why the other ways they have gone about dieting have not served them. What was it that they’re missing?

From your vantage point as a practitioner, you have such infinite wisdom how they missed out on key points, but to them they don’t know this. And again, this is where education-based marketing comes in there, telling stories and sharing your experiences, what you’ve see in your practice, what you’ve seen in your own life, why certain ways going about health restoration are better than others.

You can talk about it in a negative sense saying this is what I know didn’t work very well in chronic disease and here’s some things that were better. Now we’re not saying that they need to make a decision right away, but at least they need to appreciate that there is a choice that they have. Ultimately, it’s up to them to make the choice that’s right for them.

Unless you give them the information about how your way is maybe better, especially when we’ve been talking about chronic disease and the things that we’re seeing right now in the COVID-19 crisis.

James Maskell: One of the most telling graphs that I ever saw was sort of like a normal distribution curve that described how many times someone needs to come into contact with a product or service before they actually buy. And yes, some people will buy on the first appointment, right? Some people would just say, “Okay, yes, I need that.”

I’m like that when I go shopping for clothes, I’m like, “Yeah, that one’s fine, that one’s fine.” Whereas, I know with other people it takes a long time and they need to try everything on to do that. And what I saw is that yeah, everyone’s different, but the middle of the normal distribution graph is not two or three touchpoints. It’s many more than that.

Can you describe that phenomenon and what practitioners need to understand about that?

Uli Iserloh: Excellent point, Jim, and I’m glad you reminded me of this. So repetition is key. Just like you know as a practitioner that patients don’t magically change their habits just in one day. It takes 21-28 days to really embed a new habit if people are diligent about it.

You have to come to education-based marketing from that same vantage point. Your patients probably are only paying attention to 10% of what you say. So for you, you feel like you’re repeating yourself over and over again, but you have to stick on message because remember that people only see 10% likely of your messages.

So you need 20-30 touchpoints for people to connect with you and your brand so that you can become top of mind and that you increase the mental mind share of when they think about health that you come to mind.

It’s pretty impossible to do this manually with all your patients, and so this is where an automated patient attraction funnel is again important, where automated marketing can deliver 80% of that repetition. And then you layer on 20% of your marketing effort that is really focused on one-on-one outreach and personalizing this.

It would be a mistake to start your marketing out with all one-on-one marketing when they don’t even understand the basics. So think about your patient attraction funnel as the first 80% of the journey that has certain messages pre-scheduled, maybe in an email autoresponder as we talk about in the practice accelerator, maybe on social media. So you have to build the foundational infrastructure there.

Then only in the latest stages when people have engaged with you, when they start responding to your messages, that’s when the personal one-on-one outreach takes over and you and your team are then taking patients all the way into that first discovery call or first appointment.

James Maskell: Let me ask you this: I know a lot of practitioners, they love being on the IFM website, right? They know that they get a lot of patients from that.

Can you just describe the difference between a patient that comes from that website versus some random person in your community and what needs to happen differently to those two different people?

Uli Iserloh: Yep. So the difference is, and again, I call this the conventional medical marketing model is if a consumer already knows what your service is, if they had prior experience and that could be chiropractic, acupuncture, medspa services, Botox, dentistry, it’s very simple to market those services because people know what a dentist does. They know they have an acute problem so they know, okay, pick up the phone and make an appointment. And typically that first appointment is relatively affordable. It’s a single visit.

Now when we talk about a functional medicine or integrative medicine patients, usually they’re suffering from more chronic diseases that they’ve had for years. So there’s no acute trigger right now that says, “I need to take action.”

Also, the first appointment is probably not just one appointment, but a series of appointments and it’s much more expensive. So the person that goes through the IFM website, they have educated themselves enough that they are ready to look for a provider and so they are now in decision-making mode. They’re just trying to figure out which functional medicine provider they want to go with…who is available in my area and which one has the specialty that I’m looking for.

The same is true with SEO where people go to search. SEO is useful for people that are actually looking for this. But for most people, I would say 98% of the audience, they are not in active search mode. So that’s why SEO directory listing, the IFM listing are less useful for those people.

They need to first create awareness, “Hey, the way that you’ve been sick is not normal, even though you think it’s the new normal, you have to actually snap out of it.” And as you said, you have to revitalize their mind that resolution is indeed possible; that you’re not stuck with your genetic fate. Your family history can be changed if you make the right lifestyle changes.

But if people don’t know that lifestyle changes can actually modify the trajectory of their disease, then obviously they’re not going on Google and searching for this, right? I’m not saying that SEO and directory listing and advertising isn’t important, but for the majority of people, it’s really all about awareness and education-based marketing.

You have to post content into Facebook, into Instagram, into social media that less people randomly come across it and then realize, “Oh, interesting. I actually should be doing something about it.” Then they have to go through an educational journey that sends them from social media to your website.

They may be reading some blog posts, watching some videos but ideally my success criteria for a patient attraction website is really that you get their email; because if you don’t get the email, you don’t have an opportunity to deliver that 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 20th or 30th touchpoint, right?

This is why it’s so critical that websites are designed around capturing people’s information so that you can continue the conversation and deliver all these additional touch points.

James Maskell: Over the next 12 months, we’re going to dive deep into a number of the topics that we’ve touched on here. We’re going to talk about how to position your practice in a way that you’re solving someone’s problem, right? We’re going to talk about niching and we’re going to talk about why that’s important and the difference between generalism, which is integrative, functional, naturopathic is generalism… But ultimately, we’re here to help practices get off the ground and so we understand the importance of that.

We’re going to talk about creating that digital infrastructure and what it looks like. I would love to, before we end this call, just sort of give the practitioner who’s listening to this the most clear journey that you see. You’ve made all these websites, right? You’ve made all these practitioner sites and you also probably have an idea of which ones are working.

So, if I’m a practitioner now and I’m getting your best advice for how to bring in my first 100, 200, 500 new patients starting right now, what is the basic infrastructure that you need to facilitate that and then what is the optimal digital-only attraction formula to take people from your local community…

So not people all over the country. Yes, there are some changes with how people can practice across state lines, but it may or may not last. Let’s just say you wanted to become the best known functional medicine person in your community or you want to be known for some sort of niche.

What is the structure that you need and what is the optimal patient journey through that process to go from unaware to a new patient sitting in your office with a paid appointment?

Uli Iserloh: Yeah. So the journey for most of these prospective patients that are not aware of you yet is really starting on social media. So this is where people are actually going less and less to websites. It’s sort of happening in the later part of the conversation.

The conversation really starts on social media. So this is where we suggest you should be starting. You can’t just randomly post stuff, motivational memes, et cetera. Ultimately, which goes back to what I said before, you have to showcase the difference between what they have tried before and why that hasn’t worked and to what you’re doing…so that you are seen as the clear alternative.

The topics that you should be talking about is really, “Why has weight loss not worked for you and what is the better way to go about weight loss?” If you’re thinking about this, there’s a number of ways that you can think about why weight loss doesn’t work for most people; you can talk about each of these statements. You can also talk about juxtaposing what does work and what do people need to know in order to make work.

So it starts with clarity of what is it that you have to be talking about on social media. To you, it will feel very much like you’re repeating yourself over and over again. It’s different shades of gray, but that’s okay. You have to stick on message.

It’s like a politician running for election. You can’t be all over the place. If you’ve got health specialists who talk about gut health, you start out talking about gut health and then you roll people in the context of your stories into different things from nutrition, mindset testing, et cetera.

You can talk about different things, but the first thing that people need to see on social media is the anchoring point that we’re anchoring it back into let’s say gut health or hormones or autoimmunity.

They need to see that you are some form of specialist; that you have a content focus. That’s not to be confused that you have to medically, clinically niche down. You know clinically you still do whatever you need to do when the patient presents itself. But from a marketing perspective, realize that your audience will make decisions based on perceptions. It’s not based on reality. It’s like, how do they perceive you? Are you a better specialist and a better person to help them accomplish the result that they want to accomplish than somebody else in your community?

Again, if you’re thinking about how do I do this? How complicated is it? A lot of practitioners are not doing anything at all if you look in your community, so you can be very easily the one that stands out. It doesn’t mean that you have to go the extra mile, you just have to go the extra one or two inches and do a little bit more than other peers in your community.

Again, this is not about competing in a strict sense, it’s just the patient needs to make an informed decision based on the right information. At this point, they probably don’t have the right information to make any decision at all. So you have to provide that information and that’s where we’re starting out on social media.

Now, the next thing on social media that needs to happen is that you need to drive them back to your website so that they can get on your email list. So as paradoxical as it sounds, the goal of social media is to get them off social media. They need to get onto your channel, your email list, because we can control the conversation. You know who they are.

Again, we’re living in very turbulent times and let’s assume that your Facebook page disappears and you don’t have that marketing channel, right? So you have to diversify your marketing channels to have people on your email list and this is where your website comes into play.

The website has to be geared to presenting again, things that don’t work and how you help people accomplish their goals. So it’s pretty much the same message that you have on social media. You’re doing the same messaging on your website, in your lead magnets and in the email sequences. So you’re not changing what you say, it’s just you’re presenting it in different formats on different platforms, maybe using video and written words and imagery to convince people to take the next step with you.

Ultimately, people resonating with your stories and how you present it, how you make it easy to understand. This is what you have to have on your website. Sure, there’s 2-3% of your website visitors that are ready to transact with you now. They’re ready to make an appointment; and those are probably the ones that got referred to your website from somebody in your community.

The remaining 97-98%, what is it that you’re doing with those? This is why you have to have lead magnets. You have to capture their email information so that you can continue the discussion in an email autoresponder and an email sequence.

Now, the last thing I want to say here is that across all of this, you just have to have a consistent message. That is, I think, the most important part. You have to be consistent with what you talk about and you have to be sufficiently repeating yourself.

Consistency carves canyon and consistency also signals to your ordinance in your community that you’re a specialist because you only talk about this; because you’re consistent and dependable, you’re more likable.

So the person that sticks to their guns and makes it clear how they can help you and who they can help best, that’s really what the key is that you have to remember when you build your patient attraction funnel.

James Maskell: I really appreciate you sharing all of that, Uli. We are going to go deeper into all of this over the next year. If this really got you fired up and you want to find out more about this, feel free to get in touch with us at goevomed.com and we can definitely have a conversation about how we can help you, how Uli can help you.

We’ve been helping practitioners for a long time. If this did get you excited and you’d like to learn more about what practitioners are actually doing and the different ways they’re doing it, we did actually a series of podcasts over the last few years called “Success Leaves Clues” and in that series, we have a whole list of practitioners who have implemented different parts of this infrastructure and looked at things like how to do video on social media, how to get in front of people in your community consistently. We’ve talked about email auto responders.

Over the next year, we are going to deep dive with successful practitioners who have built really strong practices. And the good news about building this digital infrastructure is that it can take you anywhere you want to go off to that, right?

If you look at the big names in functional medicine, what they typically did was build this exact digital infrastructure that we’re talking about and then just at a certain point, way more people started opting into their email system than they could serve with their own practice.

Then you have a choice…do I want to grow my practice? Do I want to hire more doctors? Build a really expansive practice either locally or start to build other practices? Or do I want to go down the route of information marketing like books and courses and all of the things that come in that direction.

Ultimately, it all goes through one journey, and that journey is being able to build a consistent way for people to find out who you are, what you stand for and what you can help them with. And ultimately, whether your vision is just to be in practice for the next 30 years doing this or whether your vision is to go and make content that changes the world, all of those things pass through this journey.

Uli, it has been awesome to work with you over the last six years and I know that your insight has helped so many practitioners to grow their practices. Ultimately the Evolution of Medicine and Gabe’s and my vision was all about the quickest way to change medicine was to be able to inspire and empower individual practitioners to go about transforming the health of their communities by creating practices that really aided in that transformation, right?

With functional medicine as an operating system, with health coaching as a way to change behavior and with groups as a way to facilitate that transformation and make this kind of care affordable and effective for all; but ultimately, you need to get people into your little ecosystem. And especially today, you need to find digital ways to do that.

We are here for you. We’ve been doing this for six years. We’ve helped hundreds of practitioners and the need for you and your message are more important than ever. I’ve said forever that the mainstream system, the Western system is great for acute and we’re the team for chronic.

Well, we’ve had a very acute situation in this country and in this world for the last two months. And all it has shown me is that we are actually really important for acute too, because how do you make yourself immune? How do you make sure that if something like another pandemic comes along that you don’t die and your patients don’t die, they need to have a robust immune system. They need to be functioning at optimal levels and you are the only practitioner that knows how to do that for your patient base.

So it’s more important than ever for us to get that message out there and we have only digital means to do that today, but other means will come back into play and we’ll continue that conversation along the way.

Uli, thank you so much for being part of the Evolution of Medicine podcast. It is the 22nd of April, 2020. It is Earth Day. It is the one-year anniversary of the passing of our brother Gabe Hoffman, who’s the co-founder of the Evolution of Medicine.

I hope that if you’re listening to this, you’re inspired to go out and educate your community and to help them to realize the power of what you can support them in doing. Ultimately what we hear is…this is a consciousness transformation machine. As people start to realize they’re more powerful than they think and they see and hear messages of empowerment and they see other examples of empowerment, that’s the whole thing that our organization is built on.

Thanks so much for tuning in. This is the Evolution of Medicine podcast. I’m your host, James Maskell. I’m here with Uli Iserloh, who’s the Chief Operating Officer at the Evolution of Medicine and also the founder of Big Boost Marketing where he makes websites, funnels for practitioners in this space and you’re going to be hearing a lot more from us over the next year on education-based marketing.

But for now, thanks so much for tuning in and we’ll see you next time.

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